You think you know.

Unconscious bias is something all of us encounter. To some degree the world judges a book by its cover and no matter how much we try to prove that our size, age, skin color, gender and more are not our whole story. And, what you think you already know can hurt you: employees who perceive bias at work are more than three times as likely (31% to 10%) to say that they’re planning to leave their current jobs within the year. True Office Learning, The Cost of Unconscious Bias in the Workplace, April 12, 2019

Ready to learn how to leave that thinking behind?

Unconscious Bias

TriNet’s Diversity, Equity and Inclusion series is designed to provide ideas around having a diverse workforce. You will see avenues the characters can take in the conversation below. These are just a few potential paths we believe to be helpful and are not meant to be considered as the only possible outcomes. Feel free to navigate to a different path at the bottom of the page.

The main things you need to know are:

The Interviews

Angelee Dominguez's manager left the company. Angelee was hoping to be considered for the open position and took her opportunity during her scheduled one-on-one with her interim manager, David.

David responds to Angelee’s pitch with what initially seemed like enthusiasm. "I really appreciate your interest, Angelee! As you of all people would know, the role has a lot of responsibility, requiring a huge time commitment. I don’t have to tell you that there are some really rough and tumble guys in your group and every one of them is hard to influence and lead. There’s also a lot of travel involved.” David paused and continued, “Don’t you think that would be hard on you with that new little one at home? I wouldn’t want you to stress and I know how important a good work-life balance is for you. I think both us should think about that before you put your hat in the ring, right?”

Angelee felt defeated. Even though he didn’t outright tell her that she couldn’t or shouldn’t pursue the promotion, she felt like David had his mind made up and was treating her differently based on her gender (Gender bias) 💡 Angelee stewed about it for a couple of days, and decided not to pursue the promotion further.

A few weeks after their conversation, David looped Angelee into a few virtual interviews of candidates for another group that was similar to Angelee’s team. These candidates were applying for an open manager position. Angelee wondered if this was a way for David to show her what he was looking for in her group, but was excited to be participating in the process nonetheless. David joined Angelee in the conference room opposite the office of their in-house HR expert, Pat.

David saw he had a few minutes before the call began so he broke the ice, “So, Angelee are you excited for this? You get to help decide who we hire as a manager here! You're helping me make a big decision that could impact you and the company!"

"Yes, it’ll be nice to be part of the hiring process for a change. I've got a list of questions right here to ask both of the candidates. I’ve read that it’s important to ask all candidates the same questions to avoid bias,💡" Angelee replied with as much enthusiasm as she could muster.

David responded, "Eh, I've been doing this long enough; I don't need a question list anymore. I just let the interview take me where it takes me. Go with the flow, you know? I can get a feel for these candidates after a few minutes."

Angelee second-guessed herself and what she had read.

The two settled into the conference room and dialed into their first virtual interview. As the phone rings David quickly comments, "I know that Pat has been on our executive leadership to develop diverse candidate pools, but I really just want to hire the right person for the job." Angelee nods but doesn’t like something about that statement.

Angelee and David are meeting with a smiling candidate named Kwame Nyong.

David pipes up first saying, "Hi there. Thanks for joining, umm, Kuh-whammie Ni-yong?"

Kwame looks as if he has experienced others mispronouncing his name most of his life. "Hi, it's actually pronounced Q-wah-may Nee-yung. Nice to meet you, too!"

David begins the interview, "So, I hope your day is going well so far. With me is Angelee Dominguez. She's a member of the team that will be working closely with the individual who fills the role you are applying for. We are looking for a manager for her team too! For now, she's been stuck reporting to me.”

Kwame chuckles.

“Sorry, just one more time, how do you pronounce your name again?" asked David.

"It's Kwame Nyong, pronounced "Q-wah-may Nee-yung."

"Oh, interesting. Is that the name you go by or do you use a nickname?" (Name bias)💡

"Not really. It's a family name, so it’s what I go by" responds Kwame.

The interview progresses and Kwame provides a summary of his qualifications and former employment. As Kwame mentions his educational background, he mentions he received his degree from Xavier, which he describes as an HBCU.

David interjects "HBCU?💡 What is that? Is that an accredited university? Is it an online degree program? I've not heard of it before."

Kwame starts off, "Yes, it is an accredited university. It's a smaller historic Black college in Louisiana and -- "

David, interrupting again, "Oh. Hmm, okay… I don't believe I've heard of that institution or HBCUs generally. Have you, Angelee?"

Angelee was embarrassed at David’s question and wonders what David thought of the predominantly Latino university she attended. "Oh yes, there was an HBCU in the town I grew up in. They were really well known and had an amazing football team," Angelee confirmed.

The interview continues and Kwame’s daughters appear behind him. He apologizes, “Sorry about that. With COVID-19 and everyone at home, it makes life interesting.”

"That's great! Two little ones! I have a couple of kids myself. That can be super challenging with working at home and having young ones; I know juggling work at all hours and childcare is tough on my wife and I. Boy, I can’t wait to start traveling more for work! I'd imagine that's been a fair amount of work for you and your wife, also," David comments.

To which Kwame responds, "Well, actually, I'm doing this solo."

David hesitates and replies, "Oh, of course, of course. Sure. Sorry to have assumed. Well, still, having that responsibility during this time must be a challenge."

Kwame explains, "I'm very active in my daughters' lives and really enjoy being a dad. So, I definitely attend recitals and games—when we get back to those—and I of course help with getting them to any dental or medical appointments as well. We make it work!"

David replies, "That's great that you're so involved. Being a single parent is tough business. You know this job does require a fair amount of travel? Also, long days and weekends are certainly part of the package."

Angelee considered whether David was exhibiting a bit of (attribution bias.)💡

"Yes, I gathered that from the job posting. It's not an issue." Kwame responded unbothered.

Angelee interjects to refocus the interview, "Kwame, I see on your resume that you managed the top producing team for your company. Can you tell us a bit about your experience and how you were able to achieve this success?" Kwame explains his management style and how he works with his direct reports individually to help them exceed their goals.

Just as Angelee is about to ask her next question, David interjects and wraps up the interview abruptly, "Well, thanks for chatting with us Kwame. Did I finally get your name correct?” David chuckles to himself. “Must be tough for people to get it right. But I do think we have everything we need for now," he says, looking down at his notes.

“Before we go, what is the timeline?” Kwame asked. David did not respond and Angelee did her best to respond and answer the question for him. David remained silent and they said their goodbyes.

Without realizing they had not disconnected from the call David commented to Angelee, "Hopefully the next one is a better fit. The kids thing may be an issue for travel." “Let’s see… Judy Steinberg, eh?”, David says as he looks at the next invite and access the video meeting.

Judy joins the call and greets Angelee and David. Judy appears a little unkempt and not dressed as professionally as someone usually dresses for an interview. David seems to notice this and stays silent.

"Good afternoon, it's great to meet you Judy. What a beautiful picture," Angelee says, referencing the intricate painting of the Star of David in the background.

"Oh! Thank you! It has been in my family for some time,” Judy responds, tucking her salt and pepper hair behind her ear. As Judy repositioned herself in her chair, David quietly writes the word “weight” on the notepad under Judy’s name and underlines it twice.

"So, Judy, tell us a little about yourself and how your professional background applies to the role we are seeking to fill." Angelee begins. She wanted to take a bit more control of the conversation to get as much information in this interview as she could, in case David decided to cut it short, as he did with Kwame.

Judy begins to discuss her former positions and qualifications, which include a rather impressive work history. Judy’s response to Angelee’s question outlined a career history that aligned with the qualifications in the job description, and she mentioned one role that had required extensive travel. Judy seemed promising.

David follows up by emphasizing, "So our department is ever-evolving, where change is a constant. Our team works with a lot of different technology tools here. Staying up to speed on new applicable technology is an absolute requirement. How are you at adapting to new systems? Do you find it's hard for you to pick them up?"

Judy thinks for a second and says, "I was with my last company for 18 years and supported an enterprise-wide implementation of a new system. I was responsible for the communications and the implementation for our location. Being a known superuser allowed me to provide the necessary information to my coworkers during the transition."

"Good, good.” David quickly shifted gears. “This role will manage a large predominantly male team. They have strong personalities. It will require someone who can easily have difficult conversations and knows how to respond to pushback. It appears that you've mostly managed smaller teams and you were with your prior employer for quite a while. How would you characterize your experience with that?" asks David.

"Absolutely, I have managed very diverse groups of people over the years. You get used to having challenging conversations when you've been in management for as long as I have. I don't believe it should be an issue," Judy responds brightly.

Leaning forward in his chair smiling, David went on. "Okay, good. One thing I'd like to make clear is that this role does require weekend work often and a fair amount of travel. How do you feel about that at this point in your career? Also, we want to be sure that whomever we hire will be here for a bit. We will train the person on our systems and would expect that they continue to grow with the company."

Judy smiles. "Well, I think my job history demonstrates that I tend to stay put when I'm happy where I am. Extra hours are also something I'm used to."

David nods. “Great, so how do you feel about the travel. There is quite a bit of it and unfortunately, for the level of this role, requires travel in coach. Is that going to be a challenge?”

“Nope, that should be just fine,” Judy responds.

“Well, thank you for your time Judy. We’ll let you know where we land. We still have more candidates to interview.” David says abruptly. They disconnect from the call.

Angelee felt both interviews didn't truly allow either candidate the opportunity to demonstrate how their skills would match well with the role. Both, on paper at least, appeared to be quite qualified.

David turns to Angelee and says, "Well, I guess we'll have to go back to the drawing board. I just don't think either are quite the right fit. I'd hate to have Khwammie—I just can’t seem to get his name right—start only to find that it doesn't work for him as a single father. I mean, we both know there is extensive travel and long hours. I am also worried that the travel may be too much for Judy. Plus sitting in coach on an airplane, I can imagine that proving difficult for her. Also, I fear she may be close to retirement. I don't want to have to do all this again in two years if I don't have to. I'll connect with Pat to see what options we have." (Avoiding Agism in Hiring)💡

What do you think of some of these options for next steps?

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